ah, you have to fight to defy stereotypes. in god shampooing the stories we don't often hear told by the people who live in missouri. what language make new reservations are long sama the book. so this is year on al jazeera. we don't simply focus on the politics of the conflict. if the human suffering that we report. we brave bullets and bomb and we always include the views from our sites. one with the filipino workers with a being exploited by learning to make the pay exorbitant prices to leave over crowded $1.00 oh, $18.00 makes the big deal. it exposes the business on al jazeera. ah

hello there. i'm julie madonna, here in london. your current top stories on al jazeera government in the united kingdom can go ahead with its controversial plan to send asylum seekers arriving in the country to rwanda, the government policy was backed by the high court in london on friday. the court rejected arguments from charities in human rights groups that the policy is unlawful. and the 1st flights from the u. k to a wanda shed yield for next week. when i deem barbara has more from outside the high court in london. talking after the decision and some of the pro refugee groups and were saying that they were still hopeful that their arguments would when the date to summarize the judge are at the high court and rejected their injunction, which would have stopped a flight on tuesday taking asylum seekers, the 1st group of asylum seekers to k golly. and any other flights in the near future ahead of a full judicial review into the wider policy. but the judge also said that those

groups can appeal and that's going to happen at the court of appeal here. in london on monday. now the judge says it was important that the home secretary pretty patel, should be able to implement immigration control policies. the wider issue that these groups are presenting is that the scheme has not been thought through properly, is unlawful. and it's on ethical, well, that was certainly something that was backed up in court by the united nations, a refugee agency, the you and hcr on friday. they said that in fact the home office in britain has had misled those asylum seekers. he received letters saying that they'll be sent to rolanda because they, the government had suggested the un was somehow on board with this lawyers for the you and hcr here on friday, said that they certainly didn't approve the widest scheme. calling it saying that it didn't meet the letter or the spirit of the 1951 un refugee convention.

so it can a clear rejection by the you and hcr of this wider policy. there is expected now to be a 2 day hearing next month. as part of his ongoing process, challenging this agreement between the u. k. government and rwanda, which would see people who arrived in small boats crossing the channel since january of this year. the government of course insist that this is all to deter people from paying people smugglers and from risking their lives protest as in india, pakistan and bangladesh, demanding the arrest of the former spokeswoman for india, the governing party. that's the b. j. p. the poor sharma was suspended on sunday after making comments about the buffer. mohammad many consider offensive charm as a high profile thinker in india, group often representing the b g, b, j. p. in televised debate, they say strongly denied insults against any religion,

sect or ideology. bought the international backlash is flowing, inflation in the united states has had a new 40 year, high consumer prices jump 8.6 percent in may compared to the same time last year. so we're in cost of petula, been blame driven by high demand, the persistence supply shortages, the federal reserve is expected to respond with an interest rate rise next week between even more pressure on us households. i understand americans are anxious to good reason. i was raised in the household when the price of gasoline rose precipitously. it was a discussion at the table. it made a difference. when food prices went up. but we've never seen anything like prudence tax on both food and gas. america should also understand our economy has unique strengths that we can build on the job market is the strongest, has been since world war 2 not withstanding inflation. he does from north america, latin america and the caribbean have agreed on several measures to prevent

uncontrolled migration to the us. the details are expected to be in shortly at the end of the summit of the americas in lay. but lead us from the countries that account for the largest flow of migrants to the us on the present. the bottom line is coming up next to the former us ambassador to have gone to some discuss a g u. s. i scan relations will be back with an update in about half an hour and then of full news, our soap, the are see them. ah hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question. are the experiences of both the united states and russia in afghanistan, shaping the choices they're making today in ukraine? let's get to the bottom line. ah,

it was a war that took countless lives and it cost the united states more than $2.00 trillion dollars, but it's also a war that most americans would really like to forget. in the aftermath of the attacks of 911, afghanistan was a 1st country targeted in the so called global war on terror. it was governed by the taliban, and the taliban had given shelter to al qaeda. so invading the country and toppling its terrorist hugging leadership was initially a really popular move by president george w bush. but by the time president donald trump was elected, it had become what he called a 4 ever war. decades before that, russia had invaded afghanistan and tried in vain to control that country for 10 long years. last year, president joe biden made the risky decision to pull out and almost immediately the taliban were back in power. my guest today has had a ringside seat not only to the wars in afghanistan from beginning to end, but also to u. s. government involvement in that region. over the last 40 years. he's also one of the nation's leading strategic thinkers and has important insights into the

state of american power today, how it's perceived, and what he believe should be done in response to russia's invasion of ukraine. he is al, may causes former us ambassador to afghanistan and to iraq and the united nations. and most recently, he served as the special representative for afghanistan reconciliation up until he resigned last october and master callo side. it's great to be with you today. look, i want to start not with afghanistan, we're going to get to that. but you have written a fascinating piece in national interest magazine and its titled vladimir putin spirit choices in ukraine. and i'd love our audience to hear the clarity. you say that vladimir putin has an option. you can kind of keep things going and try to degrade ukrainian morale and forces. he may, escalade, he could try a conventional attack against the nato ally or, you know, upgrade his, his response in, at ukraine. or he might even, you know, make a nuclear attack at some level. and or he could find a way to some sort of acquiescence to a piece process. but in this,

i just want to read something for audience. you said that the, the role of the united states, you see on deterring the use of nuclear weapons against ukraine. washington must indicate that such a step will bring retaliation along the lines of obliterating a russia formation in the black sea or targeting major russian land formation in ukraine. these responses need to be reviewed, preparations made, and that russia needs to know that will almost be permanently isolated even from countries like china and india. it's a very incredible articulation of what the response in a nuclear attack might be. love to have your thoughts about that. what the response to the article has been because i haven't seen anyone make this kind of statement while thank you very much steve. it's good to be with you with regard to the article that, that has been a lot of reaction, a positive reaction. reaction that is good, that these ideas are out there to be debated to be considered. russia isn't a difficult situation in, in ukraine. it's very important for russia, it's

a declining power, but is now styled jake about the empire that it had that it was an ukraine with a critical part of that empire and bloody made, put in would like to restore that empire. but he had miscalculated the it has become much harder than he thought the change objective already once from wanting the whole of ukraine to half of ukraine and in the have that he wanted, he's having real problems. and so you faces, these are very tough choices. and we have a we can shape those choices by what we say and what we do, and the potential use of nuclear weapons in ukraine, against the nato ally of ours, or even a strike against the united states or issues that the broader elite and russia are

debating and differing people are advocating for different options. there is no indication that rushes prepared at this point to do so. but the, the, the idea of that debate and put in reference is implicitly to nuclear options require that we don't dismiss this possibility and think about it and try to shape russia and actions. well, let's talk a little bit about afghanistan. i don't know anyone that work harder than you did to try to get a different outcome then we eventually saw in afghanistan, you have the unique, i guess, responsibility and experience of having worked both were donald trump ministration of donald trump and joe biden. right in the same portfolio, very unique opportunity to try to negotiate with the taliban. because my 1st question is, is the taliban in place today that you were negotiating with different than the taliban? that we knocked out of power shortly after 911. what they said they were when i and

go shaded with them, that they had made serious mistakes the last time when they were in power and that they had been punished severely by the united states and the coalition for one mistake and a mistake that they say they inherit ordering alco take, they may because they hadn't heard that from the previous government that they took over from in the ninety's or south, but alada and personally, and as grew but played a big role in helping and a war against the soviets in afghanistan, which we also contributed to, meaning we increase the price for the soviet so much over time. that to our own surprise at intelligence was very surprised that they withdrew. we thought they were very unlikely that they would draw because the in the old soviet bridge and

dr. an era when the soviets went into a neighboring country that, that there and pro sylvia, that was one way highway ever give up number, sir, and ever, sir. and i never would draw. so we help the most determine the most islam as fighters because we thought they would become the problems of the soviet union as they would try to domesticate the situation and again is done. but we succeeded beyond that expectation. and to some extent what we see today enough, kennesaw still is playing out some of the things that was happening. and then i knew you were of the world's leading experts on the soviet invasion and fall and afghanistan. right. and i remember listening to you was a young guy, it ran all these issues and, and i guess my question is, how did the united states fall into this seem track? are you became the envoy in dealing with so many these rows. but were you not

during this time also saying we're, we're where they were there we are now where they were mean. well, so i was very hopeful that based on my own experience, because i went to afghanistan as ambassador of the united states during the bush administration. w and air at things looked very promising at the afghans or yearning for peace. they welcomed us. we won the war and feel like it deliberated relatively quickly, wouldn't not a lot of our of cost, but where me we may have, i've gone off track is that weeds embraced and nation building. add to it at turn, afghanistan into a, a member off the as zone of democracy, peace and prosperity. and the afghans couldn't come to an agreement on that despite either a huge effort and huge effort. we made there, as you refer to in terms of the cause at the end, after 20 years,

and the world that changed and terrorism, i was not the same issue. afghanistan sensuality in the war against that or was not as important as at one was because there is a math disperse in true networks all over the place. and china add the risen as a challenge dealing with the problem of a rising power. decide dealing with the problem of a declining power. so bad 2 presidents, both trump and buys and thought it was time to leave. it was costing too much and we went and heading and the right direction. we weren't winning the war at the price that we were willing to pay that price with that level effort. we weren't winning. so what the site live i personally favored and that we make our withdrawal condition base. and that's why the agreement that we've made with atalla on involved,

but to who pulled the plug on that. i think both presidents thought that if we link our withdrawal to africans agreeing with each other, we wouldn't be stuck there forever because they're unlikely to agree with each other. so my, i mean, the investor, it raises a really interesting question and i was thinking about you the other night when we're looking and watching president, landscape ukraine and, and really out perform everyone's expectations about leadership, about what ukraine could do in response to the russian military. which maybe we had all been seduced along by putin's own rhetoric about how strong and slick and effective the russian military was. but i wonder if ukraine had happened before afghanistan, whether someone like president sharp ghani and other leaders in afghanistan might have behaved differently. and that it, because we saw total collapse of the will to resist rella. i mean, i will,

i should say the taliban or not the entire population of the country. right? i mean so, so had ukraine come 1st, would we have seen more valiant, heroic leadership by afghans leaders that basically many of them ran out of the government. i'd have gotten government and forces underperformed. you mentioned over performing by president zelinski underperformed given expectation. we then expect that president gotten it would run away and the afghan forces with collapse rather than stand and fight or at least more than what we saw. i want to ask you another couple questions of this, but one of them is about refugees and the in the crisis, those people and also the people that were friends with us, interpreters and other supporters, that work not just for the united states, but our allies over there many of these folks were left behind, some got away, but many are still in afghanistan. but even broadly, those that got out of the country, they're not being welcomed in mass in the united states. compare that to president

biden's comments about wanting to accept up to 100000 ukrainian refugees. is there an element of racism? there is an element of discrimination between our friends in afghanistan and those who are current victims in ukraine. i don't agree we don't believe that we brought out of afghanistan, and during the 2 weeks at the end of august, over 100000 africans. and many of them add to the united states, some went to canada or other countries. and 2nd, the process is continues even her recently i was on a trip to pakistan and i in my private capacity, i raised the shoe of afghan to wanna get out, then don't that papers what can be done to help them. so this is a annual maximum and helping i have at the pac sun is helping fact. they said they're and they have allowed thousands to come out. i that the on humanitarian

grounds when embassies of asked for a for, for their help. so eh, this is an ongoing process is not finished yet. the, i think their military did an amazing job to a military to bring out over a 100000 people. no other military in the world could have done that and and, and 2 weeks. is there any hope that the united states may actually eventually normalize with afghan leaders? of course, the hope is there that a we will love normal relations with afghanistan that afghanistan can rejoin the family of nations. it was a respected their member of the international community, ah, during the monarchy that was overthrown and add some 1973 and then it continued until the soviet invasion. and then since then, afghanistan has been in one crisis, one kind of war or another. and the afghan people, urine, peace, a unity, an economic growth. and they certainly deserve it,

that we have been good partners with them at times like in the war against the soviets and which they pay. the heavy price may be over a $1000000.00 afghans lost their lives at 2 or 2. should your hope for that, why we're hopeful that even with the current taliban leadership, that areas of mutual interest could well, i mean, if you wanna have commitments to us under the agreement that we sigh and not to allow terrorists to ab sanctuary their to plot, then and plan attacks against the united states, like it happened in the ninety's, when they were in at the talib, what in afghanistan? and i, we need to monitor, we can't trust them. i, i, the, in a words are good that their words are good, but we need to see behavior. and that's why have a presence from katara and elsewhere. eric add to abbe over the horizon, as we say, presence to monitor, although it won't be as good as being in afghanistan. but we,

we, we should do that as far as that is concerned. it played an important role in the negotiations. i joke with like a day pompei a one time that i have spent so much time in ad caught that because there that's where that negotiation were taking place that i was i now a green card holder and cut or you are i go to cover a lot of your kind of a legendary or you know, i so they can play and important the role of the regional countries. right kata as an increase as our role as declined. and, and so it is a really a key, a contribution that caught that and others can make to help afghans come together. unity, as i said, there piece i because if they, there is, again, sanctuaries, for opponents and they're fighting goes on. and it could produce challenges including increased risk of terrorism to do every one pakistan is we're complaining about ttp ada box, danita, alabama, and afghanistan. when i was there,

so in that region as a, a much greater stake, dana, than, than the rest of the world in what happens in afghanistan. you know, if you, if you recall interview a lot of people that you know about sal cowles, odd of some will say, well, you know, he's republican. no, he said he's worked with all these democrats, he's a neo conservative or the neo liberal, where he is a realist, deep down underneath. and so, and i read your book, which i would tell our audience is well worth reading, called the envoy in which you don't believe in burning down bridges right with any of these players. and i want to ask about one of these bridges that president biden may be burning down and it has to do with african assets and about $7000000000.00. the afghan a stand government still has frozen in the united states. the president decided to, to take about half of that money and save it for the victims of african supported

terrorism at some level and give the others to a 3rd party. i've always been of the view that that was a dangerous box to open because it, it closed down an option of dealing with governments whether you like them or didn't. and you were trying to move them where you were. is it a mistake to open up, is that a pandora's box? that once you begin taking assets that are frozen from another government, that you end up with closing diplomatic options that we shouldn't do? right? well, that is a leverage. the frozen resources or assets have, but that's to be used very selectively. not to make a regular path. they're not in terms of our foreign policy because then it does the fact that people wouldn't want to have their res resources in the united states. on the particular case, i think what the president does, decided was to put to withhold 3 and a half 1000000000 in case the courts decide add that death.

and the families deserve to be dead to receive monies from. and that afghans and the government of the time that the attack took place that taliban because of a presence that he hasn't said it should go to the families, it could go to, to the, to afghans and stick court's decision. and now all sides older up and making that presentation to the court to decide i am sure the president goes under a lot of pressure and from the families than others to do so. and the taliban, i've not made it easy. i add to add to it to be helpful to them. you know, one of the things, just as we get into the home stretch here that i've been thinking about was, what's the future of ukraine? what's the future of afghanistan? you have 2 countries that are kind of caught in

a vice and you make this clear in your national interest article that maybe maybe, perhaps ukraine may have to forego nato membership in order to get a different thing. ah, and we haven't talked about it, but afghan us and sits and advice between india and pakistan. right. doesn't control all its own temperature within its own borders, some rocks and it raises the question of so. so u. s. history with vietnam, we eventually normalized 20 years after the vietnam war image in winner. is there a way to escape geostrategic vices that both of these countries are in and, and i would say with united states, is there a way 20 years from now to potentially normalized as we did with vietnam to do so with afghan. oh, i think there are several alternative futures and maybe more than several. i'm depending on the configurations and what happens certainly that there's one alternate. the future where i have janice done. i

makes peace with itself with the different factions, ethnic groups, religious sectarian differences comes to a form agreement on a formula which has been the problem that has been no agreement on a formula that has brought support their thought ones. and there are republicans that there are people want, decentralized left can, is on where to different regions are more control over their affairs. others will want this strong central state road of religion that they haven't come to an agreement on that they can agree to do. and if they do, and they do not present the country does not present the threat to the united states. why not? doesn't an important region it as resources such as are the resources that the world needs and would want. and it should be developed in

a way that that's important. also location in terms of being a land bridge between central asia, which very much wants to have access to the warm waters which the russian empire will wanted to. but the central agents stays would like to be able to access the ports and pakistan order the markets of india and pakistan are important. but yes, you're right, that the regional rivalry between india and pakistan has had a negative effect on afghanistan on the struggle that does taken place. there was a support thing, another side. so that's unfortunately a fact of life and that is no prospect in the immediate future of india and bucks on coming to an agreement on many as issues that divide them as i think that's going to be a challenge for us. let me ask you, finally a while back i interviewed vice president dick cheney, and my kicker question, which i'll ask you, is your,

did he have any regrets about the iraq war or the iraq invasion you, of course, our audience were the us ambassador, iraq. how do you look back now with the iraq or was it a mistake which had, should we have done things differently? while the question is that i had that time was the timing, i was doing both countries and i was martinez, danny, as the and i am and if it's not urgent, can we? let's finish. i've done is done. but of course the judgement was made. i have hand regrets myself. questions about how we did it. timing is one. how we did it? did we need to dismantle the iraqi army? did we need to govern iraq ourselves? it was supposed to be liberation. we declared then occupation government. so it didn't have to be this way and, and we attentive to kind of regional meddling as much as we should have, particularly iran. we took advantage of the situation,

a rock and now it's quite influential and iraq. so a yes, i think it's clear to some mistakes were made. yes. well ambassadors, how may cal us out as someone who makes me want to have a 2 hour show because this could have gone on for a long time. he has former us special representative for afghanistan reconciliation, former ambassador, united nations, iraq, and afghanistan, and bastard. thank you so much for joining us today, steve. great to be with you. pleasure. so what's the bottom line? trying to change the course of afghanistan was an expensive effort that in my view, failed some sought as the o colonialism bound to not turn out well. vast amounts of money were spent in the might of the american military was brought to bear, but nothing changed. the geostrategic vice that afghanistan sits at the same applies the ukraine, even if moscow and key of duke it out. does it change geography and history?

my guest today later, oblique scenario, and my view in which there are low cost ways to deter russia. but america has to be all in, even if it means facing the possibility of russia using nuclear weapons. these days were similar to periods before the united states got involved with europe in world war one. and then again, in world war 2, after years of hesitation, can the u. s. remains comfortably distant this type, the choice matters. as one choice gives permission for aggression around the world . and the other means major cost for the united states and its citizens. but it also imposes costs on the bad guys. and that's the bottom line ah, reporting in the field means i also get to witness not just news as it's breaking, but also history as it's unfolding. dropping from serbia hungry to rep one day, i might be covering politics. in the next year, i might be covering photos. but what's most important to me is talking to people,

understanding what they're going through so that i can convey the headlines in the most human way possible. here at al jazeera, we believe everyone has a story worth hearing. building a new life on any tylic beach leaving of the sea and the last a dream shad my so many but so few make it to the unity of family business. lead by a remarkable woman with a flare for cooking and desist for living. my tune is yet island kitchen on al jazeera lou.